Faraday Shieled Transformers

[cullo]

I would like someone to identify for me a low voltage transformer that has a circuit breaker on the secondary side and shields the 120v side from the 12v side. I intend to place pathway fixtures, some of which will be within 4feet of a pool. Would a transformer identified as suitable for submersible fixtures be appropriate?

[Hadco]

You will want to read the post "Under Water Code Requirements" under the UL/NEC sectionhttp://www.lowvolt.org/showthread.php?t=176

[sitelights]

This is simply the physical barrier between the primary and the secondary to eliminate any crossover between the connections for the 120v/12v (nominal) input/output. All low voltage outdoor lighting transfomers have a Faraday shield configuration of some type though it is seldom named. It is the fixture placement that is relevant.

"Hadco" directs you to the appropriate post related to the question.

[LowVoltPro]

Cullo-

Certain manufacturers make Pool and Spa rated transformers that have the protection you are looking for. I am familiar with Unique Lighting's version which has the faraday sheild that Sitelites was mentioning. That sheild on the Unique PST transformer is grounded out for extra protection from the 120v getting togeather with the 12v. It works very well, I have never had a problem with an inspector on my pond lighting becuase of it!

[Paul]

There are several of these transformers availble. Acme even has a good transformer for pool and spa use.

[Illuminator]

If using one of these "pool and spa" rated transformers, would it then be ok to place lights into a water fall that flows into a swimming pool. Although I know this would be against NEC regulations, what would be the danger if the primary voltage was prevented from entering into the circuit?

[sitelights]

Your design seems perfect for a fiber optics application; no guess work about compliance.

[Illuminator]

Although I do appreciate your response, this is an answer to a question that was not asked. I am interested in knowing exactly what physical danger exists in performing this type of applicaion. I did see that this same question was posed by another member several years ago, but I was hoping that someone might have a better answer now that technology has advanced a bit more. I simply don't understand why there are "pool and spa" rated transformers, yet we can not put lights in pools and spas.

No offense.

[sitelights]

These transformers are intended to power underwater pool and spa lights that are specificly rated for underwater lighting in a body of water intended for human immersion. This is not a UL1838 issue but rather is covered in other UL listings and NEC codes.

The pool and spa transformer is nothing special. As an example Acme's p & s units have only internal auto-reset thermal breakers for the primaries; there is no protection at all on the secondaries. The Acme p & s is available in left or right hand (to facilitate conduit connection) entry points to the 120v side which is separated by the Faraday Shield which forms a physical barrier between the primary and the secondary connection points.

["Michael Faraday (1791-1867) English chemist and physicist...is generally considered one of the greatest of all experimental physicists." The quote is from my copy of Chambers Biographical Dictionary, 1996 edition]

The p & s units are to be located near the pumps, heaters, etc. and supply low voltage current to fixtures that are rated for that use and form an integral part of the pool installation i.e. niche mounted sealed beam lamps with gasketed protective covers and wired in conduit equiped with a "dry box" above the maximum water level and outside of the pool deck that prevents water siphoning back to the 120v p & s transformer. The anti-siphoning device is actually the juncture of the conduit stub outs to a special J-box and acts as a "break" in the conduit run to the transformers. A pool with an underwater 12v niche must have a dry box installed.

As you know, most underwater pool lights are simply 12v automotive sealed beam headlamps. Pool and spa luminaires are invariably a "system" and are rated as such. The UL1838 listing deals with discrete parts that are assembled in the field for landscape lighting use and while the components are separately listed none of them are rated for use where water immersion of human beings takes place.

You may wish to pose your question to an authority on the requirement for code compliance in all of its complexity. See the post "Codes Reference" in the UL/NEC Forum.

In the mid-1990's our first use of a fibre optic system was for exactly the same application you describe and no one intentionally swam in the waterfall sluice either. Code compliance for a professional low voltage lighting contractor is not optional and what dangers exist have been determined by the relevant agencies to be hazardous and thus the consumer must be protected.

[Illuminator]

I'm going to get my dictionary out tomorrow and re-read this post. Your are obviously a very eloquent individual, and I would like to ensure that I interpret every word of your post with the utmost understanding.
Thank you very much for your time and effort.

[LowVoltPro]

Chris-

You will not find a UL 1838 P&S transformer. To be listed Pool and Spa you must carry UL listing 1563. At any rate I think the fear of what you were talking about is if the line voltage did get to the secondaries the fear inspectors would have is that someone climbing out of the pool could reach up and use the fixture as a prop to pull them self out in which case if there were live 120v getting to the light it could cause great harm, just short of turning the pool into a frying pot. I use P&S units even for lights going in dry river beds just to eliminate the fear of having the inspector not sign off. As we know each inspector can interpet the rules differently, funny thing is I have never even heard an inspector bring up UL 1838 however they do notice when a Pool & Spa transformer needs to be put in place.

[Illuminator]

So is it possible at all to have low voltage lighting within a waterfall (actually in the water) if that water is flowing into the swimming pool?

[LowVoltPro]

So is it possible at all to have low voltage lighting within a waterfall (actually in the water) if that water is flowing into the swimming pool?

Yes, as long as the light is underwater rated as well as the transofrmer and the transformer is wired to a GFCI.

[sitelights]

NEC 680-40 General. The provisons of Part D include fountains, fountain pools, ornamental display pools and reflection pools. Fountains which have water common to a swimming pool shall comply with the swimming pool requirements of this article. Are we communicating in English or what?

[Illuminator]

Sitelights,
Before I refer to the ever tail chasing NEC manual, could you please just tell me if you are disagreeing with what LowVoltPro is saying or not. I can't tell if your condesending remarks are toward his post or mine (because you didn't use the quote feature), therefore, the question remains unanswered.
(I couldn't resist that opportunity by the way)

Thanks,

[Paul]

Chris, what Sitelites is trying to say is, no, you can not use regular underwater low voltage lighting in your situation. The code is very clear on this issue.

[sitelights]

The NEC addresses the question in 680-40 General which I have quoted earlier in bold type. Every manufacturer of low voltage lighting fixtures for underwater use is quite clear on the point. The following bold type is not mine but the manufacturer's.

Vista's instructions for 5217 and 4217: CAUTION!!; THIS LUMINAIRE IS INTENDED FOR WATER GARDENS AND PONDS ONLY. NOT FOR USE IN SWIMMING POOL OR SPA APPLICATIONS. Hadco's UWL1100-N, UWL516-H, UWL135-H and UWL1-A) quote NEC 680-40 and all of the text to the end of 680-47. Kichler's 15151 and 15191 stipulates "pond only" but that is on the catalog page; the instructions may be more specific. They and all the other manufacturers quote the same text.

I suggest calling or emailing Tech Support for the company whose underwater (or "in" water) lighting fixtures you intend to use and ask them the question you pose on this forum.

Readers of my posts sooner or later discover that I never address anyone directly; my posts are for a wider audience than any one individual. Occasionally a note of exasperation is detectable in the way I express myself in certain posts. It is my belief that written communication is meant to be understood and if it is not the writer has failed in some way. My frustration is with myself and not with the reader.

One of my oldest and dearest friends, intelligent, witty, well-informed has two quirks that surface during discourse: his assumption is that a person not agreeing with him doesn't understand the issue and that if the same question is posed in a variety of ways sooner or later you will agree with him.

[Mike M]

I'm currious (like a bratty kid that responds to an adult figure telling them the rules).

I mean, the law is the law, but for what it's worth, why would anything be not safe for a pool, but safe for a garden pond? Pools are protected by fences, and ponds can be quite accessible to children and pets.

[sitelights]

I'm driving late at night out in the boondocks and see a traffic light ahead; the light turns red; I come to a stop; I look left and right; there is no other traffic in sight; I drive through the red light; a police cruiser appears from nowhere with his lights flashing; I stop, roll down my window and with my hands on the wheel I use a similar analogy to the cop that you use in your post; he writes me a ticket which I pay rather than make a fool of myself in front of the judge.

I find your question to be philosophical rather than practical. Why not run, or stop and then proceed, through every red light encountered that, in your judgement, is safe to ignore? In a civilized society we accept the protection of the law and, in turn, we are protected by it.

[Illuminator]

Very confusing. I was at the local pool supply Saturday, and there on the shelf was a pool light for an above ground pool. The fixture was intended to hang over the edge of the pool and the self contained, sealed lamp sits about 4" under the water line. Assembly was complete with it's own little transformer already attached; no assembly required.
If this type of product is produced and sold at the major pool supply companies, why is it so difficult for us to do it? I'm going to have to buy one of these things so I can investigate what makes "it" safe and compliant with NEC.

[Mike M]

Let me rephrase my question: is it a good idea to put something in a pond that the NEC says should never go into a pool? (such "pond" not associated or connected with any pool.)

[Mike M]

If this type of product is produced and sold at the major pool supply companies, why is it so difficult for us to do it?

I liken that to the rule that home depot sells Scotts weed-n-feed to consumers, but I'm not aloud to apply it without an applicators license (with which I don't disagree).

Mike

[sitelights]

The key to this issue is the sharing of a body of water with the body of a human even ankle deep.

[Mike M]

Does that mean you agree?

[sitelights]

In our society everything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

[LowVoltPro]

WOW!!! Sitelites you do know how to get under peoples skin!!! Chris, Mike-

I would get in touch with your local inspector and find out what they say, then let us know. I have heard 5 different answers to this question in the last week. It depends on who you talk to and where they are located. I can tell you I put underwater lights on water falls that spill into pools all the time. I use underwater rated fixtures and a pool and spa rated transformer made by Unique on a GFCI recepticle. I pass inspection every time. I live in Southern California.

[Hadco]

Any one that has dealt with electrical inspectors in the past knows that the code can be interpreted many different ways, some inspectors are lenient, and some can be complete asses. I will tell you this NC, WA, and OH have some of the worst (at interpreting the code to the installer or manufactures interests) or best (because they over analyze to make sure it is safe for the end user) but that depends on how you look at it inspectors.

On a separate note, Chris can you tell me more information on this pool light, as I also work for Bronzelite as well and we specialize in Swimming pool and fountain lights. However I’m not going to discuss any codes and what not due to the fact certain codes have been discussed and people are reading them but not understanding that they are there for a reason... Ask Kim Lighting what happens when you do underwater/swimming pool lighting wrong and kill 3 people. The code is the code and it is there for a reason, and it should always be adhered too.

[Illuminator]

Hadco,
I have no information on any specific light. My interest is in knowing if there is a safe, NEC approved method to install low voltage lighting in a water fall that flows into a swimming pool. I have a client that has a small water feature built on the edge of his in-ground pool. The rock water fall is about 4' tall, and about 6' wide and he wanted to have it illuminated with low voltage lighting. I really don't care what an inspector would say as I can always wait until the final inspection is complete before I install this type of lighting. What I do care about, however, is the safety and well being of people. I have no experience with pool and spa rated transformers, and I certainly have no experience putting lights into a swimming pool. If there is a low voltage lighting product that I can use to safely illuminate this water fall, I would love to know about it.

Thanks,

[Mike M]

Chris, I know I am not qualified much to comment here, but I am assuming there is no way you can down/cross light those falls from a nearby tree or object?

I guess what they are saying here is the only lights you can use are from a pool/spa rated fixutre installed by a pool/spa-lighting-licensed electrician, since the water flows into or within regulated proximity to the pool.

Which is why you may want to consider aiming a safely distant fixture onto the falls. But I'm sure that has been ruled out. I forgot to stop posting replies. Sorry. I'm talking out my butt crimps again.

Mike

[Illuminator]

Mike,
You would be correct in your assumption. I am a highly qualified, talented, formally trained and educated lighting professional. I have considerded every possible option for this client, and have left nothing chance. While I appreciate all of the responses that I have been getting, it frustrates me that I have yet to receive the response to my question. I do not need "suggestions" on how to light this object. I only need an answer to the question that I have asked in the remarks above.
If any qualified individual would like to respond to this obviously difficult question, please do so. Otherwise, I would appreciate it if any casual conversation would be kept to a minimum on this particular subject. My dead-line is drawing near, and I will need an answer for the client soon.

Thanks for your understanding,

[sitelights]

The sum of all the replies to your question is no, you cannot do what you want to do without risk. If it is your intent to solicit a yes answer you will have to get it from ill-informed, unqualified responders. The answer is no and it was no right from the beginning of this series of posts.

There is no ambiguity here. No means no. If you prefer to do your own risk assessment you must be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

Homeowners can do as they please in these matters but if you become involved in it the responsibility rests on you. What is it about no that you don't understand?

[Paul]

Chris, as stated by many there is no fixture that YOU can install that is compliant with NEC. Your only option in this matter is fiber optics. You can operate this equipment in conjunction with your low voltage lighting system by adding a sequencer. If your client just has to have the water fall illuminated, he's gonna have to bite the bullet for fiber optics which would be about $2500-$3000 retail.

One other thing to consider, since you are certified, anything that you do or advise your client to do, leaves you liable.

[LowVoltPro]

Hey check out Illumin FX. The fiber optic kit they sell is pretty awesome, however I am not sure of the code in relation to that style of fiber optics. You order them in strands that are inside of a weather proof jacket. It is not a side emmiting fiber optic, the light emits from and end or tip and produces a light similar to a 20 w halogen. Theya re very small and easy to hide. I ahev used a handfull of these kits and have had success.

[Illuminator]

They are either side emmitting or end emmitting. Been there, done that.