Index Idea

[Mike M]

I have an idea to put on the table for this incredible site.

A FAQ or index which is used to direct good questions to well written responses. Alphabetized topics, citations for threads, with reply # and date.

I find it a little difficult tracking down the good stuff, but I am able to do it, and it's worth the effort. I just wonder how much stuff I haven't found yet.

This site reminds me of an incredible screenwriting site called "Wordplay", at wordplayer.com. (note the -er on the web address).

The owners of the site have put together columns or articles, similar to a growing book. The cite has a forum, and members are often referred to columns by the number and title. An incredible culture of brilliant mentors and newbies alike. Of course, the two writers that own and write for the site have a private site administrater to help manage it.

Just an idea that might help with the repetitive questions and need for a system of organizing excellent, detailed responses.

Thank you.

Mike M

[sitelights]

Lowvolt.org before the crash had pages dealing with the genesis of the site and the ideas that brought it to the web; a page of manufacturer's links; a by-zipcode searchable list of low voltage lighting professionals with space for a considerable amount of text describing their services (also compatible with UK and Canada postal codes); attachment capabiities that handled generous file sizes in a number of upload formats and a search engine that worked for all posts from July 1, 2001 forward.

The format of vBulletin (the software used for the site) has increasingly been more flexible and comprehensive but limited to its designed parameters. As an example the "search by zip code" was a program customized and unique for the lowvolt.org site as a way to give professionals a presence on the web if they lacked a web site.

The suggestions made in reference to the "wordplayers" site (which I looked at very closely since it covers topics of interest to me) fall outside of the capabilities of the vBulleting format and, as was recognized, required the services of a full time webmaster.

An expanded and searchable database is partially in place and I think that it could be more flexible and comprehensive. Unfortunately, as you have no doubt noticed, the present search engine is under-utilized and perhaps not fully understood by the casual searcher.

There was a customized FAQ page(s) now covered by the vBulletin FAQ which is worth reading even for an experienced member.

The ability to cross-reference, index, etc. are essentially functions of a "smart" site that is constantly updated and fine-tuned by a professional staff.

Some of the deficiencies of the site will be addressed by contracting with the vBulletin Support Service; I am in the process of establishing a pay-as-you-go relationship with them. Lacking even basic programming skills requires that I hire expertise as needed.

Elsewhere on the lowvolt site there are posts relating to the past problems, on-going solutions and future improvements. Progress is limited the amount of money I can allocate to the site. The site, as stated in earlier posts, is funded entirely by me out of profits derived from my landscape lighting business. No advertising and no membership dues are the cornerstone of this site and allow it to be open and candid and not beholden to anyone.

The Comments & Suggestions Forum was put in place for exactly the reason you have chosen to use it. I appreciate your comments and concerns about lowvolt.org a site like no other.

[Mike M]

You didn't mention the possibility of having sponsors. I wouldn't mind the bias from the sponsor forums, such as on lawnsite.com, since it would allow me to ask questions directly to a manufacturer's rep, and for all to see the response.

It would be actually fun to see a virtual trade show, if you will. Sean Adams evan has that on his site.

I have difficulty seeing and reading and discussing landscape lighting on a local level, since no distributor in my area has more than one transformer on a shelf (most have none), and no irrigation distributor around here knows a thing about lighting.

[sitelights]

Public television has sponsors but I don't detect a difference between sponsors and advertisers; trash collectors are now called "waste management personel".

Lowvolt.org format and graphics speak for its purpose: no frills, no distractions, no hype; the consciously utilitarian look of the site was planned to remove all of the extranneous fluff and concentrate on content. Lowvolt is modeled, in part (others are named), on the Taunton Press "Fine..." series of magazines which are mostly reader content.

The site is not entirely unique; I frequent a number of sites that have the clean, uncluttered appearance to which lowvolt strives. To name just one there is a site emanating from the UK which is focused on a 17th century English diarist.

Samuel Pepys (1633-1709) kept a journal for nine years published as an 11 volume series (well over a million words) that recreates the England of Cromwell, James I and II and the development of British naval power written by a very human and very candid and eventually very important founder of the modern navy.

The site www.pepysdiary.com is a model of unadorned, high content information on a very specialized topic. That site (more recent than lowvolt) has come to be my model.

Lowvolt is designed to be just what you see; hopefully soon to regain its lost features. This has been in part an aesthetic decision and, if you will, a hobby of mine which allows me to twist the tail of the various asleep-at-the-wheel manufacturers, experts and authorities that do not match my zeal.

[Mike M]

Divide and conquor.

The best journal publications are indexed for reference. However, all traditional print models are chronologically sequenced and chunked into monthly/semi-annual issues. At this point, I'll also add that information is streamed carefully from an editor, most likey employed by or affliated with, a philosophy-driven foundation (the reader must read the ideological sponsorship between the lines).

Personal journals, like one I was reading by a soldier in General Sullivan's army, tell great stories, are easy to index (day 1, day 2), and are sponsored by one person's iinterpretations. Today's web-logs are similar. These are strong-voiced personal journal entries that are also interactive with the reader, who joins them on the voyage.

Forums are much more sophisticated than "blogs", allowing for organization of random information, and for public opportunity to speak. It reminds one of a virtual Camelot, where people can sit at a round table and voice their ideas. It also makes me think how much the likes of John Locke would have celebrated such an opporunity for publicly accessible, collective free speech.

I think a well designed and facilitated forum would have rules for engaging in argument/discussion, as well as voluntary civil manners. I think of English Parliament on C-SPAN--the way they refer to each other's adversaries as "respectful gentlemen."

The only problem with a forum too strongly voiced by one person, is that ideas become a bit singular. "The one and only way to do a splice" thing comes to mind. A good forum would have more than one person making bold statements with more than one "one way," and the argument would allow the reader to make their own descisions. And even respond. Ideas become a process, and not a pre-determined end.

Another idea/thought:

I enjoy interactive reading/writing words over most other media forms, but I must admit, for a visual medium like lighting, visual images can often outspeak words (check out the birdforum.net and notice the gallery and the daily photo's with simple explicit rules).

Wouldn't a user-contributed gallery of lighting photo's speak words for elements of design?

Mike M

[sitelights]

A popular site <http://www.lawnsite.com> the name of which is self explanatory is also draped on a vBulletin 3.6.7 skeleton. The site has many, many sponsors i.e. advertisers and probably makes money for the owner. With enough resources lowvolt.org could have all of the features you describe even if it took custom software and a full time webmaster.

One of my clients, a web developer, offered to maximize lowvolt.org by turning it into a commercial site; his opinion was that the site was content-rich and a perfect venue for the burgeoning landscape lighting market. His estimate was that for an initial $25,000.00 investment to fund market research and analysis and an additional $75K to implement the change in direction and format lowvolt.org (or whatever the creative consultants chose to call it) could be in the black in three years.

The annual maintenance costs assuming an initially part-time webmaster would be about $50K rising to $150K by the third year. The total investment for the first three years would be approximately $400K or a half a million max. In the fourth year ad revenues would overtake operating expenses and generate $60K rising to $120K by the end of the fifth year. However there is the example of Amazon.com which has not yet turned a profit.

I escaped from that scenario 25 years ago.

My original webmaster, Steve Gass, who implemented my ideas and made lowvolt.org a reality commented on the quality of the discourse emerging from the unedited, unsupervised and very minimally controlled open site. We both had some misgivings about the lack of rules; that has not changed.

The rules are simply the requirement to register before being enabled to post and the hope that members would limit their posts to the topics listed without the use of offensive or abusive language; that has not changed.

Steve also forecast that the quality of the posts would range from the barely literate to the erudite and there would develop an edge of competitiveness that is pervasive in our culture. Steve also quoted Samuel "Dictionary" Johnson and I paraphrase "Two men cannot remain together ten minutes in the same room without one evidencing a superiority over the other." That has not changed either.

In the Design Forum (and others) posts with images attached are shown with a paper clip symbol to the left of the posting date.

[Mike M]

vbulletin does not alow for responses shorter than ten characters, so I had to write this sentence before writing my original response:

"Ah."

[Mike M]

One more suggestion attempt: I enjoy reading and writing but I am a terrible speller. I teach special ed, and my brain works a little differently. A spell check would relieve me of much stress.

[sitelights]

The dearth of typos and wrong spellings in my posts can be emulated by the use of the "edit" button which allows one to return to a post and correct or modify the original. The edit works only for the person that wrote the original. I can edit anyone's posts but it is not my job.

Unlike email you can go home again.

[Eden Lights]

I vote for a private site, verified professionals only. You must provide materials such as yellow page add, business license, and photo ID linking you to those materials to be verified. After that you could charge for membership or ask for donations as needed. Another idea would be to provide this type of a private forum inside a more commericalized public one. Where do I send my check??????????

[sitelights]

Now it may seem that I am too lazy to actively restrict access to lowvolt.org to professionals only but my motives are a bit more complicated. Monitoring this site lately to purge the spammers that have invaded has given me a presence that I do not intend. My preference is to be invisible until I ambush someone.

Logging on six or eight times in a 24 hour period has been something of a burden; prior to the invasion of the spammers my visits were occasional. As it is now I am deleting an average of 12 bogus posts a day and perhaps 20 phony "members". But when I am logged on for other reasons I am tempted and succumb to the lure of expressing my opinion on whatever takes my fancy.

My goal is to let the site run itself as an experiment in rampant democracy: open and free exchange of ideas and information unhampered by rules and elaborate barriers to the interested public. Of course I eventually read all of the posts and I see a synergism between the professionals and the amateurs.

The restriction to qualified professionals would be problematic since I note that many of the members are attempting to move from the state of absolute novice to budding professional. It would difficult if not impossible to make the distinction nor would I want to.

My intention for this site in an ideal world would be to turn the site over to the members, put on my reading shoes and quietly immerse myself in my real interests: literature, biography and new fiction. At one point I was ready to offer the site to LVLIA (now AOLP) for inclusion in their web based endeavors to drag participants, kicking and screaming, into true professionalism. Unfortunately my bias against hierarchical structures leads me to suspect that it would not be a good match.

The tenor of many of the recent posts argues that my role on this web site grows tenuous. Make me an offer but be sure not to mention money.

[Eden Lights]

While I agree with all the points and I understand your position, Still a verified professional site is needed and is working in other professions. It allows so much more business information to be exchanged and allows and produces an more candid exchange of thoughts.

[Mike M]

attempting to move from the state of absolute novice to budding professional

:)

Again, not unlike the likes of wordplayer.com for screenwriters and, check this too, zoetrope.com...

Thanks, for the support!

Mike M.

[sitelights]

There is the possibility of creating additional forums that can be accessed only by persons achieving the status of advanced permissions; that status could be conferred on a case-by-case basis.

This is similar to the capability of the site to restrict access (by children for example) to certain forums using the COPPA function (see FAQ) except that it would work in reverse.

Thus new "private" forums could be set up and all regular members denied access in the same manner. In order to "enable" a member to gain permission to the restricted forums the COPPA ban would have to be lifted on individual members by manually changing their status; this would have to be done individually by the administrator. The administrator is, of course, me. I am not keen on having another responsibility to add to my time on site but since I am manually deleting spam and spammers up to six times a day I could just take on another daily task.

Confirmation of members as professionals would require some method of verification: registering a web site that solicits low voltage landscape lighting services, having a verified professional member "sponsor" a person they know to be in the business or submission of certifications from training programs that provide a registry number upon successful completion.

These status changes could probably be made retro-actively by simply making a change in the members profile in the "admin" area of the site.

I will be discussing these matters with vBulletin Support when contracting for paid services.

Members familiar with my postings containing key words of phrases such as "unedited", "open site", "democratic" will understand my concerns about closing portions of the site to both members and guests. I think it is important to continue to allow access to the posts without the necessity of registering. Some method of providing a "key" to professional members will have to be devised; this might have to be done with "user ID" and "password" requirements similar to most information sites.

It would be helpful if members supporting "professional status" restrictions would provide their ideas and opinions in this matter. This would be a change in direction for the site in that it would establish a third level of access: open, open to post and only open to a specific class of membership.

This change in direction is not something that I would unilaterally impose on the site but rather through consensus of participating members.

[Paul]

Since we are mentioning professional only forums, the AOLP has such a forum that is for members only. These are some of the best and brightest in the business talking about anything and everything to do with lighting. It is the only forum that I know of that is for outdoor lighting professionals only.

One of the benefits of membership.

[sitelights]

The exclusion of all but professional designer/installers strikes me as Draconian "...harsh, rigorous..." and I am not inclined to make such a drastic change. My reasons for this are given in the post in the thread "index idea" where I express my conviction that without a transition site ("...absolute novice to budding professional...") there is no way to introduce newcomers to the business.

My reflex is to side with the excluded; the "professional" sites require that you are either in or out while I countenance the in between. Early on I stated that I did not disdain the DIY member and, if you care to search for it, present my views on the matter much to the dismay of some other members. A search for "DYIers" or a similar keyword may take you to that exchange.

A "professionals only" area of the site requiring confirmation of that status is an option that I am willing to explore. The notion of excluding seekers of advice or guidance removes the synergism between the novice and the professionals; this occurs when members volunteer to step outside of their bias and address the average home owner's concerns for performance and safety in their endeavors. This is a valid function for knowledgeable members who then participate in keeping amateurs from harm; an amateur does things out of love (the real meaning of the term) rather than for profit

[Mike M]

My whole notion of an index idea is borrowed not only from books, but from card catalogs, periodical indices, citations of various sorts, US Codes, etc...

This stuff helps the inexperienced find common answers to common questions and the experienced and educated to access the rest of the universe in an efficient manner.

Libraries are public and so is the web. One extreme would be to pull the plug out of the wall and keep all this info on a desktop, and another extreme would be to have no log-in account.

If you want something in between, you could always freefloat it and just build a nice landscape lighting FAQ, a recommended index of favorite threads, and a quick list of rules and site ettiquette. If anyone abuses, they get a warning and then the boot.

I wonder how Benjamin Franklin would have handled a private/public internet forum. He would have probably enjoyed scribing a set of rules and procedures, and invented some kind of charter or something. He did invent free public libraries and the volunteer fire department.

I'm sorry I'm blabbing so much, I guess I find it interesting watching something free and for the public evolve, just because someone with tremendous experience wills it too.

[Paul]

As everyone knows, I participate in forums all over the web. From DIY to pro only. I do enjoy helping home owners set up a simple system as much as I do answering questions on electrical theory. I also love to learn from people all over the country. It seems that something is learned every day.

It is nice to be able to talk privately as well. In a private forum, pros can discuss things like pricing, acquiring product in bulk, and other things that just can't be talked about in a public setting.

[Eden Lights]

Since we are mentioning professional only forums, the AOLP has such a forum that is for members only. These are some of the best and brightest in the business talking about anything and everything to do with lighting. It is the only forum that I know of that is for outdoor lighting professionals only.

One of the benefits of membership.

Mr. Paul,

Tell us more about the forum: how many members, posts per day, and etc? I think one of my dist. will pay for my membership if asked, it might be time to ask. I was interested in the LVLIA a few years ago, but the cost of the Conference: air travel, hotel, conference fee, contest fees, certification fees, and etc. when added all up was pretty high vs. education provided. If it provides good education the charge well for the conference, but I like to stay at the motel six so to speak so I can go to another training or two during the year. Before I would never join if I couldn't do it all, but as I get older maybe I can just get the free membership and just check out the forum and be happy. Any way tell us more about the forum.

[LowVoltPro]

Last I was told was that the AOLP site had been dropped? Anyword Paul on it getting back up??

[SteveP]

Paul,

It bothers me to no end that the AOLP forum is private. Years ago I made the suggestion to Michelle that you guys allow the public to read the forum and only allow members to post. I'm sure I would be a member myself if that had happened (probably dozens of others as well).

It also bothers me that there is no public information about landscape lighting coming from the AOLP. This is despite the fact that educating the public is one of its stated goals. There is a huge need for increasing public awareness.

I can't tell you how strongly I feel that the AOLP is not serving the landscape lighting industry. Oh well, Michelle did tell me that the new AOLP is not accepting suggestions from anyone who is not a member so I guess I'm just whistling in the wind.

[sitelights]

I concur with your remarks. In fact if I could whistle we could do some two-part harmony.

My statements relative LVLIA/AOLP have become milder over the years; that doesn't mean that the organization has improved in my view. At one time, not too long ago, I contemplated making a gift of lowvolt.org to AOLP; second thoughts led me conclude that it would not be a good match with their position as aspiring spokespersons for the low voltage outdoor lighting business.

Too much user input from the unannointed would not serve their goals which to me are exclusionary rather than democratic.

[Paul]

Ok, let me try to answer these questions, first Eddie, the new forum is just that, new. We are sending out a letter to membership within the next couple of days to let everyone know how to get involved so there are only a few people on there right now, those that I have personally sent info to. I did this so we could set up some topics and get everything going.

Steve, I think that if pros can talk to each other about things like pricing, purchasing, and the ins and outs of the business without the public knowing what we pay for product or how we run our businesses, it is a great benefit. This way information can be shared without worry.

As for public information, the new web site is being developed as we speak and hopefully will be up and running VERY soon. I would like the public to be able to get information about professional lighting, the standards of installation, and other pertinent information. Things take time though and we are all (except Michele) volunteers. I think you are going to see many changes in the near future.

[SteveP]

Paul,

I appreciate your response and hope that your good will improves the AOLP.